西诺网

quora网友对中国各方面的讨论

(译者:兰陵笑笑生)

Why doesn't the world trust China?

国外网友对中国各方面的讨论

quora网友讨论:

Dan Holliday, I read.
In short:
because China's government marches to its own tune, is secretive and doesn't allow democracy and very much political freedom.
TL;DR:
As much as the West doesn't trust China, the country is unfortunately under the best management team right now. There are alternatives that have been tried and aren't working out so well.
Chang's KMT - Taiwan was ruled, autocratically, by this group for a few generations. It didn't work.
Indian style democracy - Still at play in India and, frankly, it dispenses marginally less success, justice, freedom and "prosperity" than the Chinese government does (and that's saying a lot given the type of government that runs China).
I don't have windows into alternate realities, but the reason democracy has worked so well for Taiwan is that it has a big bully next door and needs the USA and Japan for nominal protection. These nations have applied significant pressure on Taipei to change its ways. Moreover, dispensing "government" to a small nation is typically easier than doing it to a massive one.
If China were united under the KMT, it would have turned pretty bad. Possibly worse. For starters, KMT was mismanaging the entire nation. Their leaders weren't whipped into shape like the Communists. And while millions starved in the fields under Mao, it's not like Chang was gracious and giving. There would have been famines under Chang, though clearly Chang would have turned to the West for help and less would have starved.
But starting about 1990, when China really began to "leap" into the modern age at a hyper-rapid pace, the weakness of democracy would have been manifest. Assuming that China cast of autocracy like Taiwan did, then the people would have rejected the 1 child policy;
China has had a centrally plan economy for decades as the backbone to her success with a huge liberal trade economy built on top of that. I cannot believe a KMT democracy would have given China that. Likely we'd see a great deal less meritocracy and a great deal MORE of what we see in India: corruption at every level. This is not to say that there is no corruption in China. There is, but at least China hangs her corrupt officials when they become problematic to the progress of the nation.
If China would NOT have created the 1 child policy, her population would have topped two billion by now. That is a massive number. But there's no reason, given its growth rate, that it would not be around 2.5 billion now. Again, no windows into alternate realities, but what is the death toll expected in a nation with more than 2 billion, in the middle of a massive famine? There isn't enough food in the Americas to bail out such a catastrophe.
The one Child policy has easily saved China from reaching the ecological limits of the nation and has kept the entire nation from enduring another famine. In that, alone, the current government has saved both China and the world from a lot of harm.
And before you assume that I'm a supporter or believer in the Chinese communist party, think again. I want a free, democratic, China. But I'm struggling to see how this can successfully be created in a nation where more than half of the population to this day still wants lots of children and where only a powerful, distant government can prevent a massive population boom that will only spell ruin for the nation.

简言之:
因为政服我行我素,行事隐秘
总结概况:
尽管西方国家不信任中国,但不幸的是,中国目前拥有最好的政服团队。有一些尝试过的替代方案,但效果并不好。
1.蒋介石的国民党——台湾被这个专制的集团统治了好几代。不管用。
2.印度式的敏煮——在印度有发挥作用,但坦率地说,它带来的成功、正义、自由和“繁荣”略低于中国政服(考虑到中国的政服类型,这说明了很多问题)。

我不知道现实是否如此,但敏煮之所以对台湾如此有效,是因为它隔壁有个“大恶霸”,需要美国和日本提供名义上的保护。这些国家向台北施加了巨大的压力,要求其改变治理方式。此外,向一个小国分配“政服”通常比对一个庞大的国家这么做更容易。

但从大约1990年代开始,当中国真正开始以超快的速度“跃进”到现代时代时,敏煮的弱点将是显而易见的。假设大陆的政体和台湾一样,那么人们就会拒绝独生子女政策。

几十年来,中国一直把中央计划经济作为其成功的支柱,在此基础上建立了一个庞大的自由贸易经济。我不敢相信国民党的敏煮会给中国这样的机遇。很可能我们会看到更少的精英统治而会看到更像是印度那样的:各个阶级的腐败。这并不是说中国没有腐败。

如果中国不制定独生子女政策,到目前为止,中国的人口将超过20亿。这是一个庞大的数字。但是,考虑到中国的经济增长速度,(如果真有这么多人)没有理由说它现在的GDP不会达到25万亿美元左右。再一次,不好说现实会如何,但在一个20多亿人口的国家,在一场大规模饥荒中,预计死亡人数将会是多少?美洲没有足够的食物来拯救这场灾难。

“独生子女”政策很容易使中国免于达到国家的生态极限,并使整个国家免于再遭受一次饥荒。事实上,仅在这一点上,中国政服就拯救了中国和世界,使其免受许多伤害。
在你认为我是北京的支持者或信徒之前,请再考虑一下。我想要一个自由敏煮的中国。但我很想知道在一个还有一半人口想要大量的孩子、并且大规模的人口增长只会给国家带来毁的情况下,没有一个强有力的政服要怎么办?

Feifei Wang, I spend about the same amount of my life in China and in the US.
There're many good answers here, some are quite elaborate, giving many reasons about why China is sneaky, secretive, corrupted, and generally evil and untrustworthy. I think these are good answers because it demonstrate a certain popular perspective, a western perspective. It's not necessarily true, that's just how western people think of China, and because of these perceptions (true or not), they don't trust China.
I don't think I can argue against it. But trust me when I say: the feeling is mutual. China doesn't trust the west either. We had suffered some painful history under the western colonists, and it's very hard to for Chinese people to trust westerners. They came to our country, killing our people, plunder our many treasures... what makes them different now? Well, of course, modern US and European people are very very different from colonists, but the perception (true or not) is there. Westerners are untrustworthy people who covet our many natural resources and want to exploit our people.
The reason I took the time talking about how some Chinese people suspicious about westerners is to demonstrate that the reason we don't trust each other is not because politics or corruption. The real reason is because we don't know each other enough, we don't communicate enough. And to make things worse, we are so so so different from each other, we have different skin color, we speak very different languages, we have alien cultures... there's very few things we have in common at the first glance. People are generally suspicious and fear the unknown. You can rationalize it, list all the horrible things Chinese do, but in the end, you just don't know China that much to trust China. And China don't know that much about the west to trust the west.
Western people somehow believe China need to change itself to be "accepted". Well, I agree that China need to change, but not because we want or need to be accepted or approved by anyone, but because we need to change for our own people, so that our own people could live a better live.
At the end of day, trust or not is by and large irrelevant. You don't need to trust us to buy our shoes or clothing. So step down from your high horses.

这里有很多好的答案,其中有些很精细,给出了为什么中国是卑鄙的、隐秘的、邪恶的和不值得信任的的原因。我认为这些都是很好的答案,因为它展示了一种流行的、西方的观点。这些观点不一定是对的,只是西方人对中国的看法,因为这些看法(不管是否正确),他们才不相信中国。

我不认为我能反对它。但当我说:“彼此彼此。中国也不信任西方。”时,请相信我的话。在西方殖民者的统治下,我们经历了一些痛苦的历史,使得中国人很难相信西方人。他们来到我们的国家,杀害我们的人民,掠夺我们的许多财富...是什么使他们现在不同了?当然,现代的美国和欧洲人民和以前的殖民者有很大的不同,但这种感觉(不管是否正确)是存在的。西方人是不值得信赖的人,他们觊觎我们的许多自然资源,想要剥削我们的人民。

我花时间谈论一些中国人对西方人的怀疑是为了证明我们不信任对方的原因不是因为政治。真正的原因是我们彼此不够了解,沟通不够。更糟糕的是,我们是如此的不同,我们有着不同的肤色,我们说着不同的语言,我们有着不同的文化...乍一看我们的共同点实在太少了。人总是会对未知的东西感到怀疑和害怕的。你可以把它合理化,列出中国人做的所有可怕的事情,但说到最后,你只是对中国缺乏了解以至于能让你去相信中国罢了。而以中国对西方的了解也没有达到能够信任的程度。

不知何故,西方人总认为中国需要改变自己,以被世界“接受”。好吧,我同意,中国需要改变,但不是因为我们想要或需要任何人的接受或批准,而是因为我们需要让我们的人民过上更好的生活而去改变。
说到底,信任与否基本上是无关紧要的。你们买我们的衣服或者鞋子的时候并不需要信任我们。所以放下你们的高傲和偏见。

Joseph Boyle
One thing I think Westerners don't understand is the degree to which Chinese people are already preoccupied with learning and catching up to Western norms.
In some ways, Chinese and East Asians in general are more modernized and Westernized than people in South Asia, Middle East, and Africa, including dress, religion and others.
In other ways, they are independently modernized and less Westernized, for example using the national language where Indians and Africans would be using English.

我认为西方人不明白的一件事是中国人已经在多大程度上专注于学习和追赶西方的规范。
在某些方面,中国人和东亚人比南亚、中东和非洲的人更现代化、更西化,包括服装、宗教和其他方面。
而在其他方面,他们是更独立并且更少西化的。例如他们用自己的民族语言而不是和印度或者其他非洲国家那样使用英语。

Derek Harkness
Last week in my University class, I asked my students to tell me so Childrens s stories and folk tails. The vast majority of the stories were the same as I learned as a child. For example: The boy who cried wolf, Little red riding hood, and The fox and the crow. Childhood games are also very similar. I am constantly amazed at how similar Chinese and Western cultures are.

上个星期在我的大学课堂上,我让我的中国学生跟我说一些关于孩子们的和民间的故事。绝大多数的故事都和我小时候学到的一样。例如:狼来了、小红帽、还有狐狸和乌鸦。儿童的游戏也很相似。所以我经常惊讶于中西方文化是如此相似。

Feifei Wang
I think most folklore tried to teach the same lessens to children over the generations: don't lie, be nice to other people, stay safe (don't go out wandering in the woods after dark)...
But in the particular case of boy who cried wolf and red ridding hood, that's not really traditional Chinese folklore. A lot of Chinese children (especially those from big cities) grow up reading Brother Grimm and Andersen stories, we're very westernized on that front.

我相信大多数代代相传的民间故事都会试图向孩子们传递这几样东西:不要说谎,待人友善,保护自身安全(天黑后不要在树林里闲逛)...
但在狼来了和小红帽这些特别的例子里,他们并不是中国真正的传统故事。许多中国儿童(尤其是来自大城市的孩子)都是在格林兄弟和安徒生的故事的陪伴下长大的,我们在这方面非常西方化。

转载请注明出处!:首页 > 网贴翻译 > 美国 » quora网友对中国各方面的讨论

博评网